Joshua Seek

Personal Meanderings of Joshua Seek 
Filed under

faith

 

His name is Sam

I am not an apologist for Brian McLaren.  I have one of his books, which I thought was pretty good, but I could pretty much take or leave much of what he says.  I do have an issue though when people dismiss outright - or cry heresy on - a person or idea based on their preconceived notions.  Virgel, below, gives a good story on this:

 

by Virgil Vaduva
There is a perception I have that smoking cigars and discussing theology is a mix that God is somehow present in; the smoke of premium, hand-rolled cigars rolling up to the heavens must be reminding God of the good aroma of temple sacrifices, prompting him to descend and participate in the conversation. There is a verse somewhere supporting that, isn’t it?

Today I walked into the cigar store to spend some time reading and meditating, but after about an hour someone sat down close by and started discussing with someone else the book I gave to the storeowner earlier which was likely laying on the counter, A New Kind of Christianity by Brian McLaren. As I was also reading the same book, I interjected and asked what his objections were – I couldn’t understand how a 200-page book could be critiqued after a minute of examination.

Sam, the older African-American man explained to me that the chapter on Who is Jesus? was way off, and that McLaren is not teaching solid, biblical theology. He was clearly familiar with who Brian was so I did not want to wander in a debate over Brian McLaren. Instead I started talking to him trying to find out what really is the source of his antipathy; but despite my efforts, I could not connect with Sam at all. I found that everything I was saying was subjected by Sam to an If/Then conditional analysis, in that I would make a statement, Sam would compare it with his paradigm, then say that he agrees or disagrees with it. The truth is that I really was not interested in whether or not this man agreed or disagreed with what I was saying – I was simply interested in talking to him.

After about 30 minutes, the nicotine finally kicked in, and after being grilled on what I believe about the Bible we finally sort of connected; I shared with him my story, I told him about the problems I see with western Christianity and I encouraged him to look at me based on what we have in common rather than where we differ. Sam shared with me some of his story, his love for John MacArthur, and his previous hate of white men telling him about Christ. I asked him if he sees the arrogance and the imperialism in western evangelical Christianity, and he said he does. I even told Sam about the wonderful news of the Kingdom of God being a reality, something within his grasp, but he rejected it in favor of a depraved present world but a positive future judgment and bodily resurrection, which he told me, is the good news of the Gospel.

We ended up having a great conversation and exchanged some opinions, but somehow I still felt disconnected; I never really, really connected with the guy. I realized that Sam and I operate on two completely different levels. Sam’s world is that of modernity, the world of John MacArthur, one of neatly organized doctrinal points where a person either is in or out, saved or damned, where very little happens outside of the well-established game rules, the world where Sam feels the need to tell me how things are, or at least how things should be. My world is a bit more chaotic, a world where everything is questioned, re analyzed constantly, where anything goes and very little stays the same, where I don’t really feel the need to convince Sam that he is right or wrong, or that he is saved or damned to hell for eternity, where I don’t subject someone to a set of questions before conversing with him.

Today’s conversation with Sam really opened up my eyes to how far off I have walked from evangelical Christianity, and my friends, that makes me very happy; but it also makes me sad. Sam is obviously a good man, his love for God was tangible and real, he had passion about his faith and about what he believed; I can no longer connect with someone like Sam, at least not well – even if we try, we end up talking past each other more than to each other. And that is sad and frustrating; despite the embrace I gave him when he left.

I am not writing this to claim that I am better or superior in my approach than Sam, that is far from it; I am just writing about it to illustrate the generational shift taking place within the Church, something which perhaps confirms Phyllis Tickle’s claim that we are in the middle of a Great Emergence, a new reformation or perhaps self-assessment of the Church, where we sit back, sifting through what we’ve accumulated over the past 500 years, deciding what to keep and what to toss out. One thing is for sure; we cannot continue the way of Sam and expect our message to be viable; note that I said, our message, not Christ’s message.

And the identity of the message is really the key here; the modern church is slowly losing viability over the requirements it places on those walking in, while the “emergent church” (whatever you want that to mean) doesn’t object to being full of hypocrites, liars, adulterers, prostitutes, homosexuals and degenerates – yes, with people like me. It’s message before change, not change before message – embrace of all men, not conditional interaction.

His name is Sam; I hope I see him again – next time I’ll start with the embrace.

via Planet Preterist

Loading mentions Retweet
Filed under  //   A New Kind of Christianity   Brian McLaren   emergent   faith  

Comments [1]

Recycle Your Faith

Yesterday I had the opportunity to sit down with Craig Spinks of Recycle Your Faith and Quadrid Productions and do a little interview about my journey through my faith.  It was a very cathartic experience.  We chatted about thoughts, experiences, and changes in my faith, and my views on what's important.  The interview was a part of a larger interview with Emerging Desert, and Joy, Jim, Adam, and Jacob all contributed as well.  I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.  

Craig and his wife, Sara, have been on the road for the past four months visiting different faith communities and recording interviews with people along the way.  The videos on his website are reflective, sometimes offensive, but intriguing.  Definitely check them out if you're interested in honest talk about faith.

On a side note, Craig and I talked a bit at the end about how it's hard to talk about something so sensitive.  I told him that I felt a bit scared knowing that his video would be online for anyone to see, and the implications of that.  He told me that I wasn't alone:  Even people he has interviewed who spend their lives in the open, speaking about controversial topics, felt some hesitance before they sat down and had an honest conversation.  It's encouraging to know that is common to our experience.  When speaking of something like faith, that is so close to our hearts, we all feel a fear of rejection.

Check out the entire series at recycleyourfaith.com

Loading mentions Retweet
Filed under  //   emerging desert   faith   recycle your faith  

Comments [0]

Gay Adoption: Who wants to cast the first stone?

No matter what you think about gay marriage and adoption, you have to wonder what is worse: A life in foster care, or a life with a gay family.

From the policies of many conservatives, the latter is much worse.  Growing up without caring parents, having high chances of living the rest of your life on the streets, receiving a lower level of education, and learning few marketable skills, is a far more acceptable fate than being in the house of two women or two men.

As an adopted person myself, I would certainly choose a family over foster care.  With more than 500,000 children in foster care in the US, we're not looking for just a beating pulse, but for anyone who is loving and able to accept a child and provide them with a family.

If you want to be the first to toss stones, let you also be the first to adopt one of these five hundred thousand children.  I'll make it easy for you.  Call Christian Family Care here in Arizona and they would be more than happy to assist you in adopting.  My cousin is a social worker there. Ask for her.  While you're at it, adopt a special needs child, or one who is black, or over the age of 5.  These children are pretty much doomed to live in foster care for their entire lives.  It you want to cast stones, you better be blameless yourself.

Below is a post from Zach Lind's blog.  It rings so true, and I pray that people who condemn homosexuals that adopt would be the FIRST to step up to care for the least of these, the many children who need a home.

“Anyone who stands between a hungry kid and home with food is doing something immoral. Anyone who stands between a child who is not safe and safe home is wrong. And if you think that heterosexual parents make better adoptive homes, and want to make a big deal about it, you had better have at least one adopted, high need kid if you want me to give a hoot what you think. I realize that’s a much more visceral than rational response, and probably a little unfair. But as I’m sitting in my Moms’ living room, cooking for tomorrow, when 28 of our family - my sisters and their husbands and kids, my aunt and her adopted daughter and her elderly mother, two former foster kids and their kids, my aunt and uncle (on step-Mom’s side) and their kids are coming together, I find I simply can’t come up with anything else to say.”

- Sharon Astyk, a commenter at Rod Dreher’s blog, Crunchy Con, who was raised by two moms. Read her entire comment here.

There is a great deal of grandstanding by conservatives on issues such as gay equality and the rights of the unborn yet there are so many unwanted kids left to fend for themselves in a nation of staggering over-abundance. In the abstract, these arguments succeed at unifying the true believers but all the while the day-to-day lives of the forgotten trudge on. The reason conservatives are slowly but surely losing in these kinds of debates is evident in stories like the one above. These stories expose in plain site that the only value that keeps the conservative flame flickering is their own dogmatism, their own greedy hunger to be “right.” If their concern was for the children themselves, they’d most likely be too busy raising them to give a shit what others think.

 

Loading mentions Retweet
Filed under  //   Adoption   faith   GLBT  

Comments [0]

Peter Rollins: Bring the pub tour to Phoenix!

Dear Peter,

Look, I know Phoenix, AZ. does not seem like the first place that would foster the thinkers you're looking for.  We're an ever-stretching suburbia dotted by the occasional megachurch and Mormon ward.  Which is why we'd welcome you all the more.

There are many in Phoenix who are looking to experience God outside of our traditions.  People who are serving selflessly, engaging each other, and reaching out to the outcasts.  There are people who are refugees from other faith communities who need encouragement and a call to action.  

This is why Phoenix needs to be a stop on the Insurrection Pub Tour.

If it's about pubs, we certainly have our share.  Rula Bula, Fibber McGee's, George and Dragon, and a host of bars.  All of which need business lately.

Even more, there are people who desire what you have described:

A decisive act that will strip everything from us, incinerate everything we hold dear and inaugurate a new year zero.


Come on out here.

Loading mentions Retweet
Filed under  //   emergent   faith   Peter Rollins   Philosophy   Phoenix  

Comments [0]

The Manhattan Declaration - The good and the bad

WASHINGTON – Evangelical, Orthodox and Catholic leaders who unveiled the "Manhattan Declaration" Friday insisted the document is not a political ploy.

Rather, it is a testament to their common Christian witness as they stand to uphold what they believe are the three most foundational issues in society – the sanctity of life, the historic understanding of marriage, and religious liberty.

via www.christianpost.com

 

So I have to give credit where credit is due:  A group of faith leaders who normally spend their time cursing each other for their heretical beliefs came together and agreed on something.

The problem is one statement:

"We are talking out of deep religious principles grounded in the holy Scriptures and the use of reason as we understand it as a God-given gift."

-Dr. Timothy George, one of three leaders who drafted the document, emphasis mine.

Here's the problem: There are enough topics that we have been wrong about in the past to fill entire volumes.  Drafting a document that pushes you into action, while admitting you could be wrong, is honest but still dangerous.

I agree that abortion is sad, but the rage against abortion should be directed into action, not political documents that curse abortion.  Every week I see people protesting abortion clinics, but I never see that group approaching women who are in need walking into that clinic and offering to assist them, to raise their child, to offer them hope.  Instead, we see them offering condemnation.

The Manhatten Declaration seems to do one thing: Affirm the topics which christian politicians take a stand on and declare their rights to continue to have freedom to voice these viewpoints.

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Loading mentions Retweet
Filed under  //   faith   manhattan declaration   politics  

Comments [0]

Why I am emergent

I might consider this a coming out of sorts.  Certainly, many people close to me know of my involvement with Emerging Desert.  This post is for the rest of you, but it's mostly for my own ability to write things out and have an explanation for my thoughts.

A few years ago I was a part of what many would consider a megachurch.  I was on staff there, I worked there, and I was deeply involved.  But there came a point when I couldn't be involved as much as I might have liked, due to college and work.  When this happened, I noticed my access to community dried up.  Many people I considered myself close to began to stop calling.  I was out of the club.

I attempted to get involved again, but I couldn't find a way back in.  One day, I went in and wrote on a "Get Involved" card that I wanted to help with anything that was needed.  With 30 different ministries, I figured there was someplace I could get involved.

I didn't get a single call.  Nor, when I left, did I hear anything either.  A friend of mine helped me connect with some other people that were planting a church in Phoenix.  I went with them and helped plant this church for a couple years.  I though that getting out of a large church would change everything.  It didn't.

My entrance into the emergent church conversation was through house churches.  I learned that I really wanted to be a part of, and plant, small churches where every person was empowered to serve one another.  I got to experience a bit of this through the church we planted in Phoenix, and I wanted to do more.  After leaving the church in Phoenix, I started meeting with some friends in their house, very informally, and exploring options.

At this same time, I was reading a lot of books and talking with people online and offline.  Frank Viola's books on the organic nature of the church were immensely helpful, as were books by Rob Bell, Donald Miller, and books from Jossey-Bass and Emersion Books (publishers). 

I met up with Emerging Desert earlier this year, and they are an amazing community of people who love people and love God.  I'm glad that they exist here in Phoenix.

That's the background... now on to why I am emergent...

To explain this, I'm going to use the framework of Tony Jones' "Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier":

Dispatch 1: Emergents practice a generous orthodoxy that appreciates the contributions of all Christian movements.

While I was involved with my reformed, Calvinistic tradition, I came to know many people who were not a part of my tradition.  People who were charismatic Calvinists, Armenians, orthodox, and many other segments of the Christian faith.  In those days, these people were the enemies.  Even though we both loved God, they believed wrongly - or imperfectly - and thus it was my job to tell them how they were wrong.  Little time was spent telling people who don't know that God wants to know them about his love.  But this nagging thing kept happening.  Every time I tried to attack others inside my own faith, the more they loved me!  Drat!

It was because of this that I realized that they were the same as me.  I was given the opportunity to get to know them as friends, not enemies.

Dispatch 2:  Emergents reject the politics & theologies of left versus right — they anticipate a more complex reality.

I was a hardcore right wing Christian.  But inevitably, following one party means that you abhor the sins of others while accepting the sins of your own.  I believed that abortion and gay marriage were wrong, but wars, executions, torture, and isolation was acceptable.  Even the solutions that we had for the things we thought were wrong didn't really solve the problem, they just legislated our morality.

This doesn't mean I swing to the other side and become a hardcore left-winger, but I see the good and the bad in both and live outside them - a third way.

Dispatch 3: The gospel is like lava: no matter how much crust has formed over it, it will find a way to burst through.

Dispatch 4: The emergent phenomenon began when a group began talking about how postmodernism was affecting the faith.

This is the world we live in, and the emergent conversation is talking about it.  This is why I want to talk about it. 

Dispatch 5: The emergent movement is not exclusively North American; it is growing around the globe.

One of my first introductions to emergent was through Andrew Jones (tallskinnykiwi), a New Zealander.  Many in the UK would say it started there, and they're probably right.  but the interesting thing is that these conversations started separately from each other.


Dispatch 6: Emergents see God’s activity in all aspects of culture and reject the sacred-secular divide.

My first experience with this was with a group of people who went to Four Peaks Brewery every week and just spent time with people there.  Normally, there would be a divide between the religious piety, and the secular beer-drinking culture. These people did not ascribe to that, and the sacred infiltrated the secular through them.

Dispatch 7: Emergents think that an envelope of friendship and reconciliation must surround all debates about doctrine.

How many times have you changed your opinion based on someone yelling at you from a street corner, shoving papers into your face, and telling you you're wrong?  For me, never.  Even when I look back at my own faith, every time I've had a change of opinion it's been based on a loving experience.  But my own practice, in the past, has not been the same.  The way I was taught to speak to others is to evangelize them.  Usually this involved tracts, a bullhorn, and debate forums - none of which have ever convinced me to change my mind, and were rarely, if ever, effective on others.  It is my belief now that any discussion must be surrounded by a mutual humility, friendship, and love.  Each conversation must end with more concern for the other than for yourself.

Dispatch 8: Emergents find the biblical call to community more compelling than the democratic call to individual rights.

Dispatch 9: Emergent is robustly theological; the conviction is that theology and practice are inextricably related.

This is described as "orthopraxy":  Our practice of our faith is more important than our beliefs about it.  Emergents are likely to engage in deep theological discussions, but we hold these discussions at arm's length.  We're more worried with how these ideologies lead us to engaging people, loving God, serving others, and living life.

Dispatch 10: Emergents believe that theology is local, conversational, and temporary.

Dispatch 11: Awareness of our relative position—to God & one another—breeds biblical humility, not relativistic apathy.

This is best said in Tony's book:

That theology is local, conversational, and temporary does not mean that we must hold our beliefs without conviction. This is a charge often thrown at emergent Christians, but it’s false. As a society, we’ve been wrong about all sorts of things in the past, like slavery….Our forebears held positions on these issues with deep conviction, but they were wrong. And I can say that unequivocally. At least I can say that from my vantage point – as one who came after them –they were wrong. What I cannot say is which side of those issues I would have been on a century or two ago. Nor can I say which issues I’m mistaken on today.

I am not relativistic.  I do believe in things earnestly.  But I know there are many things which I am wrong on, and that I will be wrong on in the future, so I must hold things with a humility.  The things I curse a friend on today my be the things I am force to reject tomorrow, creating a terrible experience of seeking forgiveness from the person I cursed. 

Dispatch 12: Emergents embrace the whole Bible, the glory and the pathos.

Dispatch 13: Emergents believe that truth, like God, cannot be definitively articulated by finite human beings.

My dad used to give us an example of our dog.  Our dog was a particularly stupid animal, convinced that every falling leaf was an attack on our property and deserving of a five-minute round of barking.  Our dog had no greater understanding of us than we do of God.  She understood certain things.  She knew what time of day we came home, she knew that going outside equated to receiving a slice of bread.  But she did not know what we did when we left for the day, or why we wore clothes.  Her understanding was limited to the information she had available.  It's the same with us and God.  We can understand to a point, but we will always fail to understand in whole.

Dispatch 14: Emergents embrace paradox, especially those that are core components of the Christian story.

Our God has a son born of a virgin.  He's three people, but also one.  He turns water into wine and walks on water and loves people that we hate.

Paradoxes.

Dispatch 15: Emergents have a hope-filled eschatology: it was good news when Jesus came & it will be when he returns.

I hated "Left Behind".  It was a threat to get kids to turn to Jesus so they could disappear instead of dealing with the world.  It will be a good day for the whole world.

Dispatch 16: Emergents believe that church should function more like an open-source network and less like a hierarchy.

Recently, someone said they wanted to speak to the pastor of our "house church"  I asked, "Which one?"  We are made up of many people who have the gifts of pastoring.  Several of the people who come are pastors at other churches.  So when it came to someone wanting to talk to a pastor, there were several people who were empowered and capable of doing this, because they had been freed to.

Dispatch 17: Emergents start new churches to save their own faith, not necessarily to make new converts.

It starts this way, but it grows from there.  In order to create a garden, you have to lay down a lot of dung.

Dispatch 18: Emergents believe that God’s Spirit is responsible for all good. Our task is to cooperate with God.

I used to feel that I had to curse the good taking place in others.  If they weren't Christians, if they weren't my form of christian, then anything good they did was suspect.  I don't see it this way anymore.  I know that God is the author of all good, and if there's something good happening in or through someone else, then I want to be a part of it.

Dispatch 19: Emergents downplay—or outright reject—the differences between clergy and laity.

See above.  Neither were meant to exist.

Dispatch 20: Emergents believe that church should be just as beautiful and messy as life.

And it is.  Our community is messy, unorganized, over-involved, and unwieldy at times.  And it's beautiful.  Things develop on their own.  Encouragement and challenges come as they will.  And it's fun.  It's been a while since I could say that faith is fun.

This post will continue to grow as I develop my thoughts more.  Writing these things is like a decompression.

 

Loading mentions Retweet
Filed under  //   christianity   emergent   emergent church   emerging desert   faith   postmodernism   spirituality  

Comments [0]